i'd of said... i'd of said you're dreaming. dreaming! definitely dreaming. then again, dreaming is how i got this far. now more businesses in more places can afford to dream gig. comcast, building america's largest gig-speed network. good evening. thanks for joining us. there is a lot to get to tonight. new insight on everything from donald trump jr.'s trump tower meeting to the hush money paid by the president. but we begin with whether robert mueller can actually indict a sitting president. we go to cnn chief political correspondent dana bash. what did rudy giuliani tell you? >> he told me that mueller's

team informed trump's team orally, not in a written form, that they have concluded that the justice department can't indict a sitting president. now, this is a conclusion based on existing justice department guidelines, guidelines that have been in place since the nixon years. at that time the office of legal counselin side the justice department concluded that because the president has a lot on his plate that it is not something that should happen. and that the clinton administration years later reaffirmed those goodliuideline. having said that, it's never been challenged in court, ever. it was not a given whether mueller would follow the guidelines and a big question if he would challenge them to potentially indict the president. now what i'm hearing from rudy giuliani is that the mueller

team made clear they're not going to go there. >> so the significance to the president's team, does giuliani think the president is in the clear here because they -- why would they need to interview him if he was not going to be able to be indicted for a crime? >> it's a great question. to be clear, rudy giuliani doesn't -- you know, he would not -- he says over and over again as do other members of the president's legal team that he did not wrong. but this does not mean that the president is in the clear. just because the justice department guidelines don't allow fortin die the indictment sitting president doesn't mean we won't see the findings that robert mueller has that could be pretty incriminating, poe potentially, potentially against the president.

robert mueller will have to do a report he'll have to give to the attorney general because i he recused himself as a deputy attorney general. if it is something that really requires the attention of the united states congress, in particular the house of representatives and because constitutionally they are the ones that would start potential impeachment proceedings, then you might see it go that far but we're not quite there yet. the president is in no way, shape or form in the clear and it is still up in the air haven't really begun in ernest as to what the special counsel wants to ask the president and the trump team hasn't been able to get back because they don't know exactly the details of what robert mueller wants skblipts so interesting because when giuliani came on board, wasn't he he that you canning about in two weeks.

>> he thought that was going to happen but now they're clearly in a holding pattern. the trump team doesn't want any potential interview to happen until after what he we expect to be the north korean summit mid nobody on the trump team thinks that donald trump should do an interview. and that is another thing they are preparing for. what if the special counsel's team says we demand an interview and they send as you subpoena, which will be another thing that will have to go to the courts and it will be a lengthy process if that happens. but they don't even know if they're there yet. >> stay with us. kelly cordero, is it possible giuliani is giving it interview and talking about this just to kind of get this narrative out there? because just from a legal

standpoint i'd heard some legal experts say it is not settled law. this may have been a department of justice guideline that a sitting president can't be indicted but didn't somebody during the ken starr time write a different opinion? >> there's the williams piece and then there's the the -- we don't know if giuliani's conversations is an accurate reputation. if he talks in the prevailing justice department legal opinions that a sitting president is not going to be indicted. then i would think that something might play into why the president had brought on preechlt counsel recently if that timing matches up.

there are some different opinions in justice department or independent counsel memoranda. the prevailing rule is that a sitting president cannot be indicted. but you're correct, there was a different memorandum that was written during the independent counsel time in the starr investigation. that memo, though, was tailored to the specific facts. so it's important to point out that all of these member they were not written specific to this specific investigation being addressed under the regulations of the sp own based on the type of investigation that they are conducting now? >> john dean, i know you're

familiar with the department of justice and president rudy giuliani talking to dana. what do you make what giuliani's arguing here? >> well, i think he's suggesting that -- well, first of all, he's drawing out and he said you can't indictment me, you can only impeach me. and the department of justice they issued its first opinion, the oun of legal counsel saying no, mr. ing a nun it was renew had had. >> it is not really in his favor

because of the president theoretically has no reason he shouldn't down. this is a counterintelligence investigation, as well potential criminal investigation. so they really want him for the i want to echo what was said. i don't know that what rudy giuliani said is what happened. i know that his presentation about what happened. it's worth remembering. when i spoke to him and i'm assuming he had the same regs and but i was one person in the room o said it, a member and

said, yes, that's what we're doing. so assuming all of that is true, yes. the red he has a history of being ferle -- if you can't indict, you can't issue a subpoena. i think the chances just based on my reporting of an i mean, what i hear from people is that while giuliani continues to keep this door open because they don't want to look like they are snubbing mueller until they have more of a sense of where things are going. there is literally no one on the president's team except for

occasionally the president, who thinks he should sit for this interview. >> can i just add to that? i've definitely heard the same thing. these are connected, the whole notion of a subpoena versus the question of wr the president could be indicted and gloria for forge. >> what do you think? >> mueller didn't say hey, guess what you're not going to house the president because it's mott going to adhere then you have to right to. >> is that a solid argument, if

there's concern about mohler and issuing a subpoena, the trump team, if they want to fight the subpoena and they would, there there's no need for a be none of this has actual been ruled on by the supreme court, whether or not a sitting because these are actions and indamts that could the octagon. i'll also add the legal analysis that would need to be conducted on o sfrrnl as po which

potential crime we're talking about. so, for example, the analysis would be different if the special counsel is looking at activities that took place during the course of the campaign. this goes to on the investigation. >> sfrrng. >> >> so, for example, on obstruction, the specific example would be the driering of direct or comey, which the kwets

that could be found to be an ajuice. >> i want you to resit sfrnlt except for occasionally the president himself to talks about actually sitting down. >> i think that nrn we're willing to narrow it down to three three topics. o pb frsh and special counsel's likely to do. they n snm. snunlt it seems that's a

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eye it was a huge day in washington. the senate judiciary committee dumped thousands of pages of documents where members of the trump campaign were hoping to get dirt from the russians. the transcripts released today are giving new insight into the reality, new insight and new mystery regarding phone calls. jim sciutto has details. >> reporter: senate judiciary committee transcripts make clear at the 2016 trump tower meeting with russians, trump's son, donald trump jr., was expecting the russians to provide dirt on hillary clinton. a russian lobby present for the

meeting said that donelle trald jr. was in charge. >> this is a direct contradiction of the blatantly misleading story put out by the white house and donald trump jr. claiming the meeting was about adoptions. those interviewed say, however, that the russians did not deliver the promised dirt and be hoose the discussion given to infuriate jared kushner. after a few mms appeared

somewhat agitated by this and said "i really have no idea what you're talking about." >> don jr. said the meeting lasted 25 minutes. he said he believed there to be a pretty substantial delta between the meeting's original purpose and what actually took place. >> don junior, shortly after ranging the meeting, donald trump made an 11-minute phone call to a blocked member. democrats note, however, that former trump campaign aide said

the residence has a blocked number. the white house initially claimed the meeting was primarily about adoptions, an explanation disproved when an e. >> and that it took part. >> the president weighed in as any father would. >> jim sciutto joins me now. what do we know about the follow-up after the meeting? >> we learned from thoo rn.

>> she reached out to the trump campaign after the election, again to follow up on what was discussed in that meeting. so good a. then the true focus of this meeting was denied, in that statement with it being a a. >> jim sciutto, appreciate the details. we're back now with our guests. maggie, it is it funny. a drn expectative on it. i degree there were a number

offers to and the tiles report wrorted you b prp however, i that you were going to see a lot of members of the senate republic f frchl -- he had one very specific sentence where he said he didn't speak to his father in the course of drafting this statement, which his father had a hand in aboard air force i in response to the "times"' question and didn't want to bother his father but there were questions about phone calls made to a blocked number and donald

trump has a blocked number. so certainly the print script of seeing it in vipman that have existed for this year. >> it is. >> that is such a critical question here, whether or not donald trump at that point knew about this meeting, knew because it's pretty significant it would be hard to believe that don jr. didn't mention it to his father because in that meeting and in the e-mail he learned that the government russianaccording to that e-mail. >> it would be remarkable if he hadn't told his father. everybody by -- it's counter inouye it fwrsh nixon's chief of

staff had memory problems and couldn't recall. he got indicted for surgery. they moved miss could rae approximately. occasi occasion so that's a very poor showing for a witness. >> is it difficult to prove somebody they know, look, they can't recall in. >> of course it might it would be prove through come pat relates to the crafting of the statement on boof trying to explain the trump power plea or issues that the special counsel will take up, i hope hicks was

lrz very proved in it. former short-term spokesman mark offer time to investigators is whether or not those different interviews, people have different recollections or sfrsh and pritsy clear his joan rue with the tell sfrrn i mean, donald trump jr. seemed to ask

questions on other matters. >> i agree it's counterintuitive to think he would not have told his father and we have obviously talked about that a lot. the one thing that i think is worth bearing in mind about having donald trump as your father is that if you come to him with -- the condition under which could i see it where he didn't tell him would have been that he didn't tell him beforehand and he didn't tell him after because this meeting did not yield anything, according to them. if this is meeting it as they said it was, if really there was nothing offered as substance that could be used against hillary clinton, then i could see a world where he did not personally call that the russian government would not in one piece of information. it's just saying it's in a and

there's no privilege for a child, right? >> no, tutsi sleuthly no executi absolutely no privilege. donald trump jr. was supposed to get new information and he never did and that sort of indicates he knew what was coming. >> a new filing showing the president did in fact pay back

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and the fixer. it doesn't say that the repayment was an effort to keep her quiet of an affair. the office of government ethics has already sent the financial documents to deputy attorney general rod rosenstein stein you may find disclosure may beily nating horny stands didn't have to -- not entirely, anderson. i think the reason he disclosed it on "hannity" was he knew we had evidence that would undercut the prior denials by michael cohen, mr. trump and david sparts and he also new that

duk dukes. >> the other thing that rudy giuliani has said is that the president himself didn't really learn about the repayment until about ten days before it was either the hannity or the fox & friends that giuliani gave back to back, which again, we don't know for sure when the president became aware of these payments. the idea that he only became unaware of it only $10 days, he has to file that document. >> the reimbursements occurred in 2017 by their own admission. and the president signed that under penalty of perjury. so i don't understand how they

can claim -- >> julianny's claim is he just department know what those payments were for. >> this doesn't make any sense, anderson. we've heard story upon story upon story. i was on this show with david schwartz on many occasions -- >> attorney for cohen. >> correct. >> told others that michael cohen was never reimbursed, he did this all on his own. that's not true. >> but there is no evidence of when the president became aware of the payments. we don't know if he knew about it as it was happening, knew about it before. you don't have any evidence that indicates when the president knew? >> i don't understand what the argument is. the reimbursements were made in the year 2017. are they suggesting that the president reimbursed this money but didn't know about it?

>> as i recall from an interview david schwartz did on "erin burnett," he said that maichael schwartz just took care of it. >> i don't buy it, i don't think the public is going to buy it. this whole thing doesn't make any sense. if you look at michael cohen's statement in march of this year where he said he facilitated the payment and did not receive reimbursement from the trump organization or from the campaign, now we know that was purposely deceptive because according to the financial disclosure form he had already been fully reimbursed by mr. trump individually at the time. >> he said in the "fox & friends" interview this was a

total of $460,000 to $470,000 that the president had given to michael cohen in various payments. in this financial disclosure, it talks about anywhere between 100 $250,000. >> i don't understand it. the truth appears to be very elusi elusive. >> did the president really come clean? has he gone far enough? the fact that the office of government ethics referred the financial filing already to the justice department, walter shaub said today the referral is

tantamount to a criminal activity. do you agree? >> absolutely. he says he didn't need to report the debt to mr. cohen. we disagree and although he provided some information about it this year, he provided none last year. and the office of government ethics send that to the department of justice and said to the extent you're investigating anything criminally about the president's finances, you may find this to be of interest. it's the office of government ethics that decides what does and does not get forwarded. the president hasn't provided any counterargument as to why the filing was wrong.

mr. avenatti raised the discrepancy between the sworn statement and public disclosure and statements made by his surrogates. the other issue is the legal one that his conduct has been referred to the department of justice for potential criminal prosecution. that strikes me as potentially the much bigger deal here. >> how common is it that the office the government ethics refers something? >> not very common at all. what appears to have happened is the president tried to sneak in the debt to mr. cohen in a footnote on page 40-something of his report and the office of government ethics said, no, you can't do that, you have to really disclose it but since you provided enough information, we'll let it go. but then of course sent the letter to the department of justice also saying note this

wasn't reported last year as it should have been. >> it said it was between $100,001 and $250,000. >> the discrepancy is hard to explain. it may be that the number that mr. giuliani gave included not just the $130,000 repayment but the other legal fees that the president was paying to mr. cohen for his work. it's not clear at all what -- >> or possible other deals that michael cohen was making on behalf of the president. >> absolutely. but if that's the case, then those should have been reported both today and last year depending on the timing. that would be a violation of federal law to not report it. >> thank you very much. a new report in the "new york times" fleshes out the secret

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the president likes to end his campaign rallies with a song "you can't always get what you want" but it's a different song that provided the code name for an fbi investigation that helped provide the foundation that came the name for the "crossfire hurricane."

can you explain what it is? >> it came from a rolling stones song, "jumping jack flash," the lyric, "i was born in a crossfire hurricane." >> when did the investigation actually begin? >> it began july 31st. >> of 2016. >> of 2016. correct. it was given a code name. >> and agents were dispatched to london, correct? >> yeah. shortly after that, a key agent in the counterintelligence division was on a plane headed to london to interview an australian diplomat who had drinks with george papadopoulos, campaign adviser to donald trump. >> this is the same strunk who had drinks with a woman that was

a controversy. >> yes. it's clear from our interviews that fbi agents and others in the bureau were exhausted from the hillary clinton slog. they were not eager to jump back into another politically fraught investigation into a presidential candidate. >> and was this all initiated by the report about papadopoulos talk to the australian official? >> yeah, that was the genesis of this investigation. when george papadopoulos, you know, had too much to drink and disclosed that he might have information about hillary clinton to this australian diplomat, the australians got very concerned about it and went to the fbi and there were high-level negotiations and eventually the australians thought this was too important and they let an fbi agent sit

down with this diplomat and memorialize this person's conversation in what is known as an fbi 302, which is in fact a piece of evidence. >> and i understand some at the d.o.j. think agents could have been more aggressive in the investigation. how so? >> well, pete struck is a very aggressive agent. he wanted to take steps in the hillary clinton e-mail investigation that others were opposed to. they could have taken more overt steps. they could have interviewed papadopoulos earlier, before they interviewed him in january. they had already interviewed but the flip side of that is they were worried it would leak. >> adam goldman, thanks very much. appreciate it. >> when we continue tonight, the latest on the planned summit between president trump and kim jong un seemed like a sure thing

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the trump administration is still trying to figure out what north korea men when the lead negotiator said his country wouldn't unilaterally give up the nuclear program if the sues trying to drive them into a corner as the north threatened to cancel the summit between president trump and kim jong un. the president had this response today when asked about the standoff. >> we haven't seen anything. we haven't heard anything. we will see what happens. we'll see what happens. we'll see. time will tell. >> well, even as he was saying that, white house press secretary sarah sanders tomd press that the white house wasn't caught off guard which put a speed bump in the talks. >> what is the reaction to the north korea saying they won't be boxed in.

>> we fully expected this. the president is used to and ready for tough negotiations. and if they want to meet we'll be ready. and if they don't that's okay too. >> you said this was fully expected did you believe they would pull back at some point. >> we know this is kind of i guess a standard function that can often happen. and you know, we're not surprised by it. but we're going to continue moving forward. >> earlier i spoke about this with david axelrod, a former senior adviser to president obama and fareed zakaria. now that north korea is saying they're not forced into forced nuclear abedinment. it seems their definition of denuclearization is different than the rest of the world. >> the crucial thing is what you said anderson, as we've all been saying. the odd thing about this impasse is that perfectly predictable, indeed predicted.

this is why many of us cautioned that perhaps the best way to approach this summit would be to start at lower level negotiations, figure out what exactly they mean by denuclearization which they have traditionally always meant first you end the u.s. south korea alliance. you get rid of american troops. then we feel less threatened and don't need as many nuclear weapons, et cetera. >> that's traditionally the preamble to the summit. traditionally there is legwork and meetings before the two leaders get together. >> historically presidential summits have been the cap stone of a long period of negotiation, not the beginning point. when they are the beginning point you end up in the situation we are in. if this falls apart where do you go next? how do you restort start things in it leaves everyone bewildered and becomes dangerous. it's also why you don't set expectations high. donald trump has been showering praise on kim jong un for absolutely no reason.

he hadn't made changes in policy. trump made the concession which was after 20 years the u.s. president agreed to meet with north korea before it denuclearized. we made a concession trump showered praise on him when you reach the perfectly predictable impasse nobody seems to know what td. it looks like amateur hour at the white house. >> david, president trump makes it clear he is undertaking something here that no other president has been able to do and frankly willing to do. he hasn't batted down the possibility of winning the nobel peace prize for it how much does he have riding on the summit taking place? >> well, he -- too much is what i would say. i think that he -- his behavior has raised the stakes for himself. and one of my big concerns about this whole thing from the moment that he signalled apparently on his own that he was ready to have this meeting is that he now is under pressure to produce something from such a meeting.

and kim is aware of that as well which may be part of why he is -- he is balking, i mean the north koreans have a long history, to paraphrase a friend of mine they think the shortest distance between two points was is a curve. the notion this was a straight line into productive negotiations wasn't right. but trump has put himself in a vulnerable position by raising the stakes so high for himself and standing at rallies showered with nobel chants and something. he needs to produce something from this meeting. i think he is creating the sense that maybe he can't walk away from the table. >> it's interesting what you said fareed that he gave away this big card which the north koreans wanted which is a face-to-face meeting between the president of the united states and the leader of north korea without getting anything in return. tom friedman from the times just yesterday saying the same thing about moving the embassy to jerusalem that this was something that you know the --

that netanyahu clearly wanted and the president just agreed to do it without getting anything from netanyahu in terms of stopping you know the -- anymore settlements built in certain areas of the west bank or whatever to further the peace process. >> exactly and trump's negotiating style seems far from from being the master of strategic approach that he is often aclaimed it is it seems impulsive, somewhat emotional, not well thought through. as david says it raises the stakes. he has to get a deal. here is the killer he needs a deal better than the iran deal because he just rejected the iran deal which means no nuclear weapon was be 98% of enriched uranium has been to be shipped out or destroyed. that's a tough deal to get. you get a deal like that in a meeting even if it's a day or two between donald trump the president and kim jong un you

have to have all the issues knowing the issues hammering is out and in extensive ways. >> the president has it backwards. he is approaching this like a television show, like a real estate deal. it's far more complex. abeven if he were to strike some sort of deal on coming out of that june meeting, there would be a very complex set of discussions to define what it actually meant. >> fred zakaria, david axelrod . thanks. with this to get to including the breaking news on rudy giuliani with dana bash about his discussions the robert mueller investigation team.

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